LONDON CRIMINAL #96-00060
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
CHALMER C. HAYES,
JANUARY 28, 1997
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE JENNIFER B. COFFMAN
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury
FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. PATRICK MOLLOY
MR. MARTIN HATFIELD
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEYS
110 WEST VINE ST.
LEXINGTON, KY 40507
FOR THE DEFENDANT:
MR. GATEWOOD GALBRAITH
ATTORNEY AT LAW
1305 NICHOLASVILLE ROAD
NATHAN F. PERKINS
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
P.O. BOX 5161
LONDON, KY 40745
. . .
18 THE COURT: Mr. Hayes, just have a seat. You
19 won't be sworn again. You just need to remember that you
20 are still testifying under oath.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
24 Q. Mr. Hayes.
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. You have been present in the courtroom when this last
2 witness appeared, have you not?
3 A. Yes, sir, I have.
4 Q. And did you - did you hear what Mr. Hood testified to?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. And you noticed that he has given two affidavits from
7 people who purport they work for the CIA in the records
8 division. And if you recall, he testified that they gave
9 him certain names - gave them certain names and a couple of
10 Social Security numbers to run.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Mr. Hayes, would that information have been sufficient
13 to uncover or to reveal your relationship with the CIA?
14 A. No, sir, he'll need a control number, he'll need to know
15 how to answer the questions when they ask him. In other
16 words, stuff about my life, number one. He would also need
17 a different name, sir.
18 Q. Are your records contained under a different name at the
20 A. They are, sir.
21 Q. And do you know if those records still exist?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Have those records been altered in any way, to your
25 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
1 Q. Could they have been without your knowledge?
2 A. No, sir, I doubt very seriously if that can happen, sir.
3 Q. Yes, sir. Are you at liberty to reveal your contact
4 number with the CIA to this jury and this Court?
5 A. Yes, sir, I am.
6 Q. Would you give these people and the Court and all people
7 sitting here what your contact number is with the CIA?
8 A. It always has been the same number for 42 years, 602367.
9 Q. That's your contact number with the CIA?
10 A. That's correct, sir.
11 Q. Now, if the CIA - could you give a telephone number on
12 which that could be checked?
13 A. In fact, the government got it out of my billfold. In
14 other words, when they picked it up. I haven't got the
15 number with me right now. But --
16 Q. The government has it in their possession?
17 A. Yeah, the government has it in their possession. It was
18 three numbers in my billfold. And they asked me for Social
19 Security numbers. That's the reason I never have given
20 exact Social Security numbers, because they also operate
21 under separate Social Security numbers, sir. That's the
22 reason I wouldn't answer the question.
23 Q. If you had - if they had a number and they called and
24 said this call is being made on behalf of contact number et
25 cetera, would they be asked any further questions?
1 A. Yes, sir, they sure would.
2 Q. What questions would they be asked?
3 A. Probably be asked the name of my mother.
4 MR. HATFIELD: Objection, Your Honor.
5 A. And the name of my --
6 THE COURT: Just a minute, please. State your
8 MR. HATFIELD: It's hearsay, what questions they
9 would be asked.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
12 Q. Would the person who called your contact with the
13 contact number be asked questions to ascertain their
15 A. Yes, they would, sir.
16 Q. If they could not answer those questions with the
17 appropriate response, would that information be given out?
18 A. No, sir, under no circumstances.
19 Q. Sir, are you - do you feel it's sufficient that your
20 contact number has been given or do you think that it would
21 hurt your status if you gave the name too?
22 A. Gave what name?
23 Q. What name that you operate under with the CIA.
24 A. No, sir, I don't mind.
25 Q. Would you tell the court that?
1 A. It's up to the government if they want to redact it or
2 not. It's, it's Charles S. Lawson. And the reason for
3 Lawson, that was my mother's maiden name.
4 Q. If the CIA had been given that information and
5 required - or asked to put a records check in, is it your
6 belief that your employment with the CIA would be known?
7 A. Yes, I - they probably would given what information, if
8 it was pertinent to the Court.
9 Also, the print from your hand that opens doors, in the
11 Q. Do you believe if your fingerprints had been sent to the
12 CIA that this would have been cleared up?
13 A. Well, that and also the heel print that opens doors.
14 They have in - they have a place where that you use not only
15 your fingerprints, it's the heel of your hand that goes up
16 and opens door, sir.
17 Q. I appreciate it. There is no question in your mind you
18 have been an employee of the CIA, is there?
19 A. No, sir.
20 MR. GALBRAITH: Okay. Thank you very much.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Hatfield?
22 CROSS EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. HATFIELD:
24 Q. Mr. Hayes, are you telling this Court and this jury that
25 nowhere within the records of the Central Intelligence
1 Agency is the name Charles Hayes, Chuck Hayes, Chalmer
2 Hayes, can that be found anywhere on any record within the
3 Central Intelligence Agency? Is that what you are telling
4 this jury?
5 A. I don't know, sir. I can't answer something I don't
6 know, Mr. Hatfield. I told you how my name was listed. I
7 can't vouch for something, in other words, I don't know
8 anything about. I've never run it, I don't know.
9 Q. That's your not your legal name, is it?
10 A. Well, Mr. Hatfield, it's like everything else the
11 government does, some things they do aren't exactly legal.
12 THE COURT: Just answer the question, Mr. Hayes,
13 don't give a lecture. Is it your legal name or not?
14 A. Charles S. Hayes, Charles Sea Hayes is my legal name,
15 sir, it's on my birth certificate.
16 Q. Mr. Hayes, do you remember when you were on the witness
17 stand the first time that I went down about four names with
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And I asked you if you had ever used or had any other
21 names, and you answered that question no. Do you recall
23 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. And if you will go back
24 and get that testimony, sir, I don't think that's the way it
25 come out either, sir.
1 Q. Is it your testimony here today that the CIA has no
2 records on any individual by their true given name; that
3 everybody uses, as you testified to, a control number,
4 excuse me, or contact number?
5 A. They all have control numbers, but that's not true, sir.
6 What you are trying to do is get into nuts and bolts. All
7 right. Let's answer it. Everybody that works for the
8 company --
9 Q. Mr. Hayes --
10 A. -- Central Intelligence Agency.
11 Q. I didn't ask you that question.
12 A. No, sir, you asked me a direct, broad form question and
13 I'm trying to narrow it down, Mr. Hatfield, and give you a
14 truthful, God given answer, sir. Please, let me do it.
15 MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Hayes. What was
17 the question?
18 MR. HATFIELD: I asked him was it his testimony
19 that everybody within the CIA who is an employee of the CIA
20 is simply known by a control number, that no CIA records
21 reflect the true given name of any of its employees.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Answer the question first and
23 then you may explain if you need to, Mr. Hayes.
24 A. I need to explain.
25 THE COURT: Well, answer the question first.
1 A. Yes, they are - and every member of the Central
2 Intelligence Agency has a control number. Now I need to
3 explain the other part of the question, Mr. Hatfield.
4 THE COURT: Go okay. Go ahead and explain.
5 A. Very simple. Everybody does not work in covert actions,
6 so therefore they do not get a second name. A lot of people
7 that goes there, the stenographers, they type up things,
8 computer operators, they operate under their same name. I'm
9 sure Jim Woosley was there, which I went to military school
10 with, is director of the CIA, I am sure that Jim's name is
11 listed on there just as Jim Woosley, I'm sure. He doesn't
12 have a control name. I'm positive.
13 Q. Well, whether control numbers exist and whether or not
14 people who do work for the CIA have control numbers, that
15 doesn't mean that each individual who is an employee of the
16 CIA doesn't have records concerning their true name; isn't
17 that correct, Mr. Hayes?
18 A. Yes, sir, but it is handled in a different manner,
19 Mr. Hatfield.
20 Q. Well, you heard Agent Hood --
21 A. Mr. Hatfield, what you are saying, you are trying to
22 subvert the truth.
23 Q. No, I'm not, Mr. Hayes.
24 A. Okay, sir.
25 Q. No, I'm not.
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 A. I am sorry, I didn't --
3 THE COURT: Wait just a minute, Mr. Hayes.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
5 THE COURT: Stop sparring with Mr. Hatfield,
6 please, and stop criticizing him and just answer the
8 THE WITNESS: Ma'am, please, I - I'm really trying
9 to answer --
10 THE COURT: Don't criticize him. You told him
11 he's subverting the truth. Don't do that again. Just
12 answer the question.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay, I'm sorry for that, ma'am. I
14 shouldn't have maybe said that.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 THE WITNESS: What I'm trying to say is, you can
17 answer a question in several ways.
18 THE COURT: No, you are just going to answer it,
19 you are not going to editorialize it. Just answer the
20 question. Do you remember what it is now?
21 THE WITNESS: He asked --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: He, in other words, if everybody had
24 a control number. Yes, everybody has a control number,
25 Mr. Hatfield.
1 BY MR. HATFIELD:
2 Q. I think the question was, are you telling this jury that
3 there is - that just because individuals who work at the CIA
4 have a control number, the CIA has no reference in their
5 files anywhere concerning that employee's real name, real
6 date of birth and so forth? Is that what you are telling
7 the jury?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Are you telling the jury that - that because of your
10 particular relationship with the CIA, that they don't have
11 anywhere in their records your true name and your true date
12 of birth and your true Social Security numbers?
13 A. I'm sure they do, sir.
14 Q. And you heard Agent Hood read into the record those
15 affidavits which indicated that diligent, thorough searches
16 had been made of all contract employees, operational
17 employees, administrative employees, and none of those
18 searches show that you ever worked for the CIA. Did you
19 hear that?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. You didn't hear Agent Hood --
22 A. What I understood, that under three names that he asked,
23 and only three names did he ask and two Social Security
24 numbers did he ask if I was employed. He also stated that
25 he did not send my fingerprints or heel print in either one
1 of them, sir.
2 Q. Mr. Hayes, that wasn't my question.
3 A. I answered your question to the best of my ability,
4 Mr. Hatfield.
5 Q. My question was, are you telling this jury that the
6 Central Intelligence Agency would have no information
7 concerning your true name, your true Social Security number
8 and your true date of birth?
9 A. No, sir, I didn't say that at all, sir.
10 MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank you, Mr. Hayes.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Galbraith, anything else?
12 MR. GALBRAITH: Nothing further, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Hayes, you
14 may step gown and return to your seat.
Web Page http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
Posted here January 6, 1998