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Charles Hayes: A Prison Interview

by Wesley Phelan
May 25, 1998


Charles Hayes is a remarkable figure. Hayes generated a following after he was introduced to the American public by two writers: James Norman, a former editor of Forbes magazine; and Orlin Grabbe in the now famous "Fostergate" series.

Recently James Norman made mention, in correspondence, that the Orlin Grabbe articles about Hayes and Whitewater related matters were the best materials on the Clinton scandal. In reading the Grabbe material carefully, I come away with the opinion that Grabbe's account was written as a contemporary chronicle of events regarding the removal of Clinton, which was projected to occur before the November 1996 Presidential election.

Clinton was not removed from office as scheduled. Hayes was subsequently arrested on contrived charges. But the story around the ostensible failure of Charles Hayes and his associates rings true.

I have researched and written about numerous aspects of the proliferating Clinton scandals. I recently did extensive investigations into allegations of drug smuggling from Canada into Montana. Information I gathered for those stories confirms some of the assertions related to Charles Hayes.

The Alexander Dumas novel The Man in the Iron Mask [Volume III of Le Vicomte de Bragellone] and its "musketeers" could anticipate a very real high-tech Fifth Column today [1]. The strange deaths of Ron Brown, Admiral Boorda, and William Colby in 1996 may indeed indicate a "spook war" between rival US intelligence groups. The claims of forensic audits done by accessing electronic wire funds transfers are more believable today because the issues are in the news and are being discussed. Likewise the strange resignations of more than 60 members of Congress seem to confirm the claims made by James Norman.

Some of the interviews with Charles Hayes have been made by persons who were not familiar with the issues. As a result, Charles Hayes, and his interesting ideas, were not presented properly. This interview is a first small effort to remedy that situation. The activities of Charles Hayes and his associates may indeed offer a major key to understanding the broad changes taking place around us.


Q: Hello Mr. Hayes. Are you doing well?

H: Yes sir.

Q: Did they treat well at Lexington?

H: No sir.

Q: I was told you had been accused of starting a fire there. Is that correct?

H: That's right. They found out that I didn't. I offered to take a polygraph test, a truth serum test, or a voice stress analysis test. When I did that they found out who did it. But they never did anything to them.

Q: Did you take the test?

H: No sir. But I was willing to sign away all rights to take one.

Q: I was also told they kept you in solitary confinement, even after they found out you weren't responsible. Is that right?

H: That's exactly correct, sir.

Q: They provided you with a chair and a table but no pen and paper, right?

H: That's not correct. In the one room that I was in I had no table, no chair. There were two beds in there, and a shower, and a toilet. That was it.

Q: Why do you think they kept you in solitary after they found out you weren't responsible for the fire?

H: Check out the facts on that. My daughter, because of what they pulled on her up there, she went to Clements in Tennessee, the Congressman, and also Vice President Al Gore, and they were in the process of asking for a complete internal investigation. That's a good thing to check out. In the month of February they lost $30,000 in the food kitchen. That sure didn't come out -- three tractor-trailer loads - that sure didn't disappear because of any inmates taking it. That's one thing.

They have a new housing unit that's just opened up. It's over a million-dollar housing unit. There are more cracks in that building, in the floor, in the foundation, than in any building you'll find in New York City. They didn't put a lot of things in the building. They don't even have a ramp to the second floor that they can put a food cart on.

Q: You are talking about mal-administration in the Bureau of Prisons?

H: Right. And it starts with the warden there. I've asked for an internal investigation. I will testify gladly. It would take five minutes of looking, and it would be apparent to anyone. There are also roaches and other problems up there that you will not believe. They have bugs that you would not believe. We had to put down pepper at night to keep them from getting in the beds. They are about two inches long.

Q: Why were you targeted by the FBI?

H: Orlin Grabbe can answer that a whole lot better for you than I can on the phone where I am right now. Jim Norman can also.

Q: Did the orders to frame you come out of Miami?

H: No sir.

Q: Do you know where they came from?

H: Yes sir, Washington.

Q: Did this come from the highest levels of the Justice Department?

H: Evidently, because the judge in my trial chastised the FBI and sent the jury out and told them they were lying and they didn't use the proper report form. They have since learned that the lead witness is a liar. They also made the statement that the Justice Department in Lexington, that under no circumstances were they going to prosecute a government witness. Number two, they owe me a million dollars - the government does now -- on the gem heist that I covered under morti back several years ago. That has been written about several times.

Q: The witness you're talking about, would that be Lawrence Meyers?

H: That's right.

Q: Did you meet with Bill Clinton privately in the months before you were arrested?

H: Several months prior, at the greater Cincinnati airport. [Actually one month prior.-jog]

Q: Can you explain what went on at that meeting?

H: I don't want to, sir that's privileged information.

Q: Do you believe that Bill Clinton will be forced from office in the near future?

H: In my opinion, yes.

Q: On the basis of one particular allegation, or will this be the cumulative effect of many scandals?

H: It will probably be the cumulative effect, but let's put it this way: the fellow in Arkansas who was driving the Mercury, who had all the stuff in the trunk, I don't need to tell you who that is . . .

Q: Johnny Lawhon was the fellow who ended up dead . . .

H: Yes, he's dead.

Q: I think he owned the car lot where the tornado took the trunk off the car . . .

H: Not exactly, but that's alright, that's what they say. (laughs)

Q: That's not what happened?

H: Talk to (a journalist) about that.

Q: I talked to the minister who preached the funeral. He said he had not heard of any foul play being involved. Would you dispute that?

H: Well, there was another person that was in that with him, who died a week later. Altogether, there have been 28 deaths associated with Arkansas.

Q: The other person who died, what was his connection to Johnny Lawhon?

H: Talk to (a journalist).

Q: Do you believe that Jim McDougal died a natural death?

H: No sir, I never will believe that. And by the way, after having a urine test, he went into the hole down there. And you don't keep someone in the hole for not giving urine, for four months. That's baloney.

Q: My understanding was that he was asked to give a urine sample on October 23 and didn't. He was then in the hole for about 7 days, and again in March was asked. Are you saying he was in the hole for the entire time between those two requests?

H: They segregated him for the whole time, my friend [2].

Q: The initial reports that came out of Fort Worth said he had been given an injection of Lasix. Do you have any knowledge of that?

H: If I did, I wouldn't want to repeat it now, number one. Number two, let me say this to you. I knew Jim and Susan real well, and I talked to Jim before he left Lexington. Jim was getting ready to talk about Mena, Arkansas. Jim had all the information on Mena.

Q: Was Bill Clinton involved with the CIA when he was a student in England?

H: Let's put it this way: he was not only a student over there, he was in a program. Yes, he was attached to the company.

Q: Were you involved in a supervisory position with him at that time?

H: I think it has been written about in several different magazines that I was.

Q: Is there a struggle right now between different factions in the CIA?

H: There sure is, and also the other branches of law enforcement.

Q: Could you explain what is going on?

H: I don't intend to right now.

Q: Why did the Fifth Column focus on corrupt congressmen? Why not target corrupt judges and military officers?

H: Who says they haven't? I've got news for you. The Fifth Column is out to do one thing. And I don't want to talk that much about it. We're out to do exactly what is right. We have never done anything wrong. And by gosh, we're going to keep it up until something busts loose.

Q: I wrote two stories on murder and drug smuggling in Montana. These went out over the internet, and caused a fairly big splash. They have been bound and passed around in Montana, and I understand they caused a furor up there also. I . . .

H: They have asked me to testify in front of the commission up there. My appeal is up right now, I'm up for appeal. If I get out they will send a subpoena and a plane for me.

Q: Who is they?

H: Some of the people within the Montana legislature.

Q: This would be (a Montana state senator) or those associated with him?

H: Perhaps, I would not want to use names.

Q: Do you believe the governor of Montana will be indicted with regard to this?

H: Possibly.

Q: There were reports of records of transfers of money into his bank account, and that someone you know has these records. Will these records be made public?

H: Possibly. Possibly the government has already got the money back in escrow right now. Or maybe the government just hasn't got it yet.

Q: In other words, you're saying there's a possibility the money has been transferred out of the governor's account, into another, holding account?

H: That's correct.

Q: Is it more than a possibility? Has it in fact happened?

H: I'd say, go check his bank account. You won't find anything in it, Bank Suisse [3]. (laughs)

Q: I was talking about bank accounts in Montana.

H: No, most drug money leaves out of the country very shortly.

Q: You're saying that you believe he had a Swiss bank account?

H: What you see on the movies - numbered accounts do not exist in Switzerland.

Q: How are these accounts designated?

H: They're lettered.

Q: So the Fifth Column knew which account was his, and has tapped the money out of it?

H: I'd say that the banks there were all using Promis software, that they stole from Bill Hamilton. And I'd say a lot of the banks in the Caymans are. As you know, there was a guy out west, Michael Riconosciuto, who put a back door in. The back door got closed, and somebody else has the door. So, every piece of Promis software that they stole, didn't do them any good. They can't change it, because if they do, somebody will get a printout of all the accounts in the bank. The guy across the street will have a printout of everything if they bother to change software.

Q: I'm not following you here. I understand Promis, Riconosciuto, and the back door. I don't understand what would happen if these banks attempt to get new software.

H: What I'm saying is, they've got a list of the lettered accounts for these people, their names and addresses. I'm talking about all the politicians who have resigned. They have a list of all of them, that has been downloaded.

Q: They being the Fifth Column?

H: Possibly, that's a good guess. If they attempt to change software in the bank, all this downloaded information will go to the bank across the street. They couldn't afford to have somebody know all of their accounts, could they?

Q: The bank across the street in Switzerland?

H: That's right. Orlin Grabbe can tell you all about this. The greatest thing that has come out of this so far is Ordinary Money, Parts I and II, by Grabbe.

Q: Do you think that Al Gore will be forced from office?

H: Yes sir.

Q: On account of what?

H: The Polo building in Washington, number one. And they are now blaming the Fifth Column for Ron Carey, as you probably know. It's been in several magazines.

Q: Do you think that Ron Carey is trying to kill you?

H: No sir. He's not man enough.

Q: What do you think about Chip Tatum being forced off the internet? The FBI forced the removal of the American Hostage Page. And AOL took the Black Ops Reporter website down in association with this. What do you think about that?

H: Well, I think they're getting a little high-handed. Maybe somebody needs to take Mr. Freeh's paycheck away from him for about three months. (laughs)

Q: Why have your contacts at the CIA left you twisting in the wind?

H: Not all of them have. No further comment.

Q: Did your associates have anything to do with the resignation of (Congresswoman's name redacted)?

H: No comment.

Q: Mr. (Congressman's name redacted)?

H: Right now you've got me in a bad position. Don't ask me questions like this. You're pinning me down too far. I don't want to answer questions like this.

Q: Do you think the Department of Justice will indict Oliver North?

H: Yes, should have a long time ago. He's lost all of his money now, so he hasn't got anything to fight with.

Q: When you say he's lost all his money, you're saying he lost his Swiss bank account?

H: Oh yeah. Isn't that nice?

Q: I have no problem with anybody losing ill-gotten gains.

H: He couldn't even come to my house, he had to stay in Puerto Santos. As you might know, I have a permanent residence in Brazil, also. Other people stayed at my house who worked for the U.S. government. I wouldn't even let him stay at my house. He had to stay at the Holiday Inn.

Q: The polls are now showing that George Bush, jr. would defeat Al Gore if the presidential election were held today. Do you think that George Bush jr. will win the next presidential election?

H: No sir.

Q: What will prevent it?

H: I think too many things will come out on Bahrain.

Q: Would you like to elaborate on that?

H: It's pretty simple. George Bush's two sons, Maggy Thatcher and her sons, own all the oil wells off of Bahrain. That's why we had the war over Kuwait. It's very simple. It's common knowledge all over Washington.

Q: Do you believe the Vince Foster death will ever be unraveled?

H: I think it's coming apart now.

Q: Due to what?

H: The stuff found in the attic by his wife, and a bunch of other stuff. By the way, if you don't know it, the first two high tech, secret notebooks were found in his office. They were related to espionage.

Q: I think Linda Tripp [4] testified to Congress that he had blue notebooks in his office.

H: That's right.

Q: What was in those notebooks?

H: I think that's privileged, and you are not cleared to know.

Q: How does that relate to his death?

H: Let's put it this way. Linda Tripp like it or not, she tells it like it is. I've known Linda for a long time, and she's not trying to get even with anybody. She's like I am, she would like to see justice done.

Q: Do you think Linda Tripp does not believe Vince Foster committed suicide?

H: I think if you could get her to believe that, you could sell her water-front land in Arizona.

Q: You may be familiar with the fact that the Department of Defense leaked confidential Form 398 information on Linda Tripp to Jane Mayer of the New Yorker. Do you know what I'm talking about?

H: Yes, I know what you're talking about.

Q: Do you think that was done intentionally?

H: Pretty much so.

Q: Would you like to speculate on which congressmen might think it's in their best interest to resign in the future?

H: In the last year and a half, you've had more resign than there's ever been before in history. They all need to take care of their kids, no matter how old they are - whether they're 35 or 36, what have you. (laughs)

Q: Do you think that (Congressman's name redacted) might feel the need to take care of his children?

H: I'm not going to comment. We don't comment like that. We're not out here to - we issue a packet to somebody and they know it. Anybody who is a crook should get out of government.

Q: Do you suspect there are others in the Congress who are crooks?

H: No question about it. The Senate too.

Q: Is there anything you would to say to your friends on the outside?

H: Yes. I would like to see a complete investigation of the Lexington facility - I wasn't done right there. They're trying to cover their backside. They had the CYA syndrome.


[1] For a slightly dated, but still informative account of the Fifth Column's activities, see Jim Quinn's interview with Jim Norman at http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a1005582.htm.

[2] Based on my research into the death of James McDougal, I am almost certain Hayes is mistaken about this minor point.

[3] I received this cryptic note from one of Hayes' associates who read the interview soon after it was transcribed: "Just so there is no confusion. The bank whose French name is Societe de Banque Suisse is in English Swiss Bank Corporation and in German Schweizerischer Bankverein." I understood this note to be a confirmation of Hayes' statement, and a clarification of which bank he was referring to.

[4] As many people have pointed out to me since this interview appeared on Orlin Grabbe's home page, Deborah Gorham, not Linda Tripp, gave that testimony.

Professor Wesley Phelan may be contacted at wphlen@mtco.com

Web Page: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/