Listen carefully while FBI Agent David "Killer" Keller explains why Orlin Grabbe is really Chuck Hayes, and how he did, or maybe did not, discuss the issue with Customs--or some reasonable facsimile thereof.
(From the Transcript of Hearing Proceedings, U.S. versus Chalmer C. Hayes, U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Kentucky, London, KY, London Criminal 96-CR-0060, October 25, 1996. Perkins & Perkins, Court Reporters, 1-800-550-3797.) Warren Scoville questions David Keller.
Q. Okay. Tell me how you know that that page on the internet is Charles Hayes' web site. That's what you said it was.
A. I didn't say that I knew for sure. I said I had a high degree of suspicion that it was probably Charles Hayes.
Q. Give me the basis for your suspicion.
A. Well, it's pretty singular in nature when you pull all of the data from the J. Orlan Grabbie internet, the things that he has published over the last--well, just since it has been--that I have been able to retrieve. But the--a lot of the information has been singular in nature. It has been informtion that has been recently developed, as recently as within the last seven to 10 days--
Q. Do you have--
A. --that all of the sudden appear on the--on the internet under the name of J. Orlan Grabbie.
Q. Have you ever met Mr. Grabbie?
A. For example--
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, let him finish the answer please.
BY MR. SCOVILLE:
A. [David Keller] Well, okay. For example, Mr. Hayes has been in a dispute in a--in a--in a legal instant litigation with the U.S. government. His, I think, some--his finders fee, if I can call it that, in just simple language, over some gems in a customs case. And that was recently settled as recently as this month, October of this month. And it's already on the internet. Copies of the letter are on internet from the U.S. Customs Service. Copies of the letter under this pen name of J. Orlan Grabbie, as recently as within the last--and what I'm getting at is that not very many people know that.
Q. Okay. When that case was settled, did Mr. Hayes get money from the government?
A. Yes, sir, I understand that he did.
Q. How much did he get?
A. Six hundred dollars is what I heard.
Q. Do you know why he was paid that of $600?
A. It's my understanding that it was part of like a finder's fee or like a commission for --
Q. When he worked for the government?
A. When he worked for the U.S. Customs Service.
Q. Helping them locate illegal gems coming in from Brazil?
A. No. I really--really don't know the involvement, but he was involved in with the U.S. Customs Service in connection with breaking up a smuggling organization that was bringing stolen gems into the United States. And this occurred, I think, about five, six, seven year ago.
A. It has been some time ago.
A. He has been involved in extensive litigation, I think, trying to argue--argue--
Q. Arguing about--
A. --about money--
Q. Yeah. Okay.
A. --that's owed to him.
Q. Do you know that that's still ongoing?
A. No, sir, it was settled as recently as--
Q. Have you got those documents? How do you--how do you--
A. I pulled them off internet, and that's what I was getting at.
Q. Who put it on the internet?
A. Well, this J. Orlan Grabbie as a pen name.
Q. Now, you believe--in other words, I'm asking you, sir, do you have any documentation from the Customs or anybody that he was actually working for them?
A. No, sir. I mean, no, not--
Q. So all this stuff that you are pulling off the internet there--
Q. --from a web site that you don't know, and you don't know who this person is?
A. I have been in--I have been in touch with the U.S. Customs as early as yesterday.
Q. Okay, okay. Do they acknowledge that there is a problem with--that there is litigation going on?
A. No. They told me that it was settled. I'm aware that this thing is settled.
Q. That's what they said?
Q. Did they confirm for you that he, in fact, worked for them and assisted them in breaking up the smuggling ring?
A. I never even asked them. I--I believe he is aware of doing--or had some role in that, yes, sir.
A. Which initially--
Q. Did you ask them if he had any dangerous propensities when he worked for them?
A. No, sir.
MR. HATFIELD: I object to that phrase, worked for them.BY MR. SCOVILLE:
THE COURT: Overruled.
Mr. SCOVILLE: I thought that's why we were here today, as I understand it.
THE COURT: Go ahead. I overruled it.
MR. SCOVILLE: Okay.
Q. What--did you ask him anything about his--was he a danger of any kind? That's what we are here for today. Did you ask him anything like that?
A. No, sir, I didn't ask him those--those specific questions, no.
Q. But did they confirm for you that he worked for them for a period of time?
A. I don't know. I did not ask them that. I don't know what his role is with the U.S. Customs.
Q. What did you ask them?
A. I didn't even talk to them. I was getting my information through facsimile. I was in communication with the facsimile, and also with Bob Rawlins, the Assistant U.S. Attorney that is handling that particular litigation, was the go-between between me and the U.S. Customs yesterday.
Q. Did you get facsimiles here in your office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you say?
A. It's all in relation to the internet, the same stuff I was pulling off the internet. Some of the same material, it was all the stuff on the internet. It had nothing do with the Customs case itself, except, except-- except for the documents in the internet with documents from U.S. Customs--
Q. Let's back up.
A. As recently as--as within the last 10 days or so this month.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You told me that you talked with someone in Customs at first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That you been in contact with Customs?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you ask the Customs people about Mr. Hayes?
A. Nothing. I didn't personally call.
Q. Then you haven't been in contact with Customs?
A. Yes, sir, I picked up the phone and talked to them and handed the phone to Bob Rawlins.
Q. Did you call them or they call you?
A. Well, there was a series of calls that started--
Q. By you?
A. No, sir, by Customs. They called me--called our office.
A. Through Mr. Rawlins.
Q. Okay. So Mr. Rawlins called them and asked them to call you?
A. Something in that nature, yes, sir.
Q. Well, I don't know, maybe I misunderstand you. But can you tell me what Customs told you about his role when he worked with Customs or what he did?
A. I have never talked to Customs about his role.
Q. Can you tell me what they told Mr. Rawlins?
A. I didn't really have to ask him a whole lot because I already had some knowledge--
Q. But you--
A. --about Hayes' affiliation with Customs over the gems.
Q. Okay. If you already knew about it--I thought you said--testified here just a moment ago that you'd had this conversation with somebody in Customs, or Mr. Rawlins had had a conversation with somebody in Customs, that you had facsimiles that had come from Customs?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Okay. What did--what were--what was your inquiry to Customs about Mr. Hayes? What did you and Customs talk about?
A. It was mostly--it was all having to do with what was on the internet, about the U.S. Customs case and other things under the pen name of J. Orlan Grabbie, and that is--that was basically the extent of our inquiries from Customs, and--or--that basically what the contacts were about. There were a series of telephone calls facsimiled between our office and U.S. Customs within last two days that centered on the internet publications.
Q. Okay. Well, I want to get this straight one more time. Does--did you confirm with Customs that he had been a person who worked for them and helped them in a--recover some gems?
A. No, sir, I knew that.
Q. Okay. And when you talked to Customs, have you ever talked to them about his propensity for violence?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. How long have you known of Charles Hayes?
A. I first became aware of him when he came to our office and talked to a special Agent Kincaid about this same Customs inquiry.
Q. When was that?
A. Approximately four or five years ago.
Q. You don't remember in 1990 when Mr. Hayes purchased computers from the United States attorney's office?
A. Yes, sir, yes, sir.
Q. That was 1990?
A. Yes, sir. Well, I said that's when I first encountered Mr. Hayes, was when he came to our office with the gem case. I'm not saying that I haven't had other contacts with him.
Q. When was the first time you heard of Mr. Hayes?
A. It was when he was in contact with Special Agent Kincaid over the gem thing from Brazil.
Q. That was about 1985?
A. It was, I would say, four or five years ago. It could have been longer.
A. It has been a while. It's been a long time whenever it started.
A. It's been a while.
Q. Did you recall the controversy with the U.S. Attorney's office?
A. Yes, sir, I do, most certainly.
Q. What was that about?
A. It concerned Mr. Hayes purchasing salvage computers from the United States Attorney's office and getting those computers and getting access to the information that was inadvertently left on the hard drives of those computers.
Q. He had actually legally purchased those computers?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And he was never charged with doing anything wrong?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would it be safe to say that there was some animosity that developed as a result of that between the government and Mr. Hayes?
A. I don't--I can't answer that. I mean, I don't think there would be anything that would prejudice the government to act one way or another, if that's what--
Posted here January 8, 1997
Web Page: http://www.aci.net/kalliste/